Hi Mike,
Mike Schrag wrote:
>> Changing the way Entity Modeler Properties window behave will not
>> change the way we use Eclipse (full screen, with a lot of views, menus
>> and toolbars).
> I think it might ... Maybe not specifically properties, but moving
> towards a more-windows-and-not-all-full-screen approach encourages new
> workflows. If you were using the normal Eclipse workflow (i.e. not using
> the "open in new window" setting for entity modeler), you would almost
> never drag and drop, because you have to do a perspective switch to do
> it. The Mac approach encourages multiple active perspectives in a
> single environment, which allows for things like dragging an entity from
> EOModeler and dropping it on WOBuilder to create a display group.
Good point. :)
> The
> eclipse way requires clunkier, less-user-friendly workflows as an
> artifact of its crappy ui design.
>
>>> It would also be a better use of space because currently we use
>>> Eclipse's tabbed preferences panel, which those tabs on the left
>>> side, which is a big waste of space and look ugly as hell.
>>
>> Looking at the screenshot you posted, I can't see any clear advantage.
>> The space occupied by the old Properties view is now empty.
> I think this is precisely the advantage ... There's now empty space. If
> you're following the recommended style of developing models, using
> prototypes, you should actually very rarely need to interact with the
> properties view, yet it's always there, taking a performance penalty for
> updating the editor panes (making selection feel sluggish), and looking
> very complicated. Contrast this with EOModeler. You open it and there's
> very little there. Most of the same features exist, they're just not
> screaming at you on startup. EOModeler has tons of terrible UI issues as
> well, but I like that they tried for simplicity.
>
As said, I'm not a big fan of Inspector panes. But I've got your point
with those examples.
>
>> It can make sense if you plan to produce an Entity Modeler solo
>> application for Mac. But it doesn't fit well the Eclipse platform
>> context.
> There is actually an Entity Modeler.app Eclipse RCP app for the Mac that
> shares plugins with WOLips, and I've been considering focusing more on
> the development of that as a separate app, taking things more towards
> the multiple-app style that Apple originally used.
>
>>> Anyway ... I'm not sold on this, but Eclipse UI is the suck, so I'm
>>> always looking a ways we can make it suck less.
>> Eclipse "abstract" UI is an old and known problem. But, being honest,
>> Xcode window management is far from good too. Designing good UI is
>> something really difficult. IMHO, the problem here is related with
>> context. Are you creating a tool in the context of Eclipse or Mac?
> If I'm picking an approach, it's the Mac. Eclipse UI is terrible. The
> more you try to fit in with Eclipse, it seems the worse things get.
> Eclipse is an amazing platform that allows us to do amazing things, but
> I don't get the impression that the Eclipse team really cares about user
> interaction and user experience much -- it's just about shoving more
> things on the screen at a time. Some of this is that the Eclipse
> platform gives you the rope to hang yourself with, and plugin developers
> happily use it -- and we have, too -- but I want WOLips to be a great
> tool that people enjoy using, not something that is awkward that they
> have to fight.
>
I still think the problem is related to context. If your focus is Mac
style, Mac environment and Mac workflow, there is no doubt multiple
windows are the way to go (and the separate window for Inspector panes).
But Eclipse has a different approach with views and perspectives. Both
styles have pros and cons.
Cheers,
Henrique
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