Re: maclike vs eclipselike

From: Jeremy Matthews (jeremymatthew..ac.com)
Date: Sat Oct 03 2009 - 16:54:32 EDT

  • Next message: Lachlan Deck: "Re: maclike vs eclipselike"

    I don't develop much in WO anymore, but my 30k ft view reminds me of
    these gems (and dammit I hate quoting people, but now these are stuck
    inside my head).

    ###
    It's really hard to design products by focus groups. A lot of times,
    people don't know what they want until you show it to them.
    - Steve Jobs

    You can't just ask customers what they want and then try to give that
    to them. By the time you get it built, they'll want something new.
    - Steve Jobs

    (Paraphrasing) "Development is not democracy" (...just prior to
    rolling back a commit)
    - Mike Schrag
    ###

    OK....that aside, I think Eclipse vs something else means one thing:
    change. Some people like it, some don't.
    All change is hard. No one wants it - they want things to stay the
    same but get better.

    BUT, that being said, most folks have only moved to the Eclipse tools
    over the last 2-3 years. That's not a lot of time to get used to
    walking on the rug before it gets pulled out from underneath you -
    depending on how drastic the changes really are and how quickly the
    new product arrives...

    So, this is less about tools, and more about change, from my
    perspective. (It seems as though there were equal amounts of
    complaining from using either Xcode or Eclipse)
    Change is a bitch, but it is how we move forward, be it good or bad.

    -j

    On Oct 3, 2009, at 3:53 PM, Pascal Robert wrote:

    >
    > Le 09-10-03 à 15:38, Mike Schrag a écrit :
    >
    >> I've been thinking some of the same things ... I've been giving a
    >> lot of thought about Eclipse-as-a-service -- making a cocoa app
    >> that uses the parts of Eclipse that are great (like its
    >> understanding and handling of Java) but replacing the parts of it
    >> that sucks (like ... everything else). It can be done in lots of
    >> ways -- either by having Eclipse as the centerpoint, but only for
    >> Java editing, and it vends out a service interface to the project;
    >> or, I could embed a VM in a Cocoa app and call between them as
    >> needed (this is surprisingly easy to do and actually works really
    >> well). As far as cross-platform ... I don't really care about it.
    >> I'm not proposing killing WOLips or anything dramatic like that --
    >> it is what it is, I'm just thinking about what tools I want to use
    >> to build apps ...
    >
    > Well, from what I see, a lot of place are now asking new devs on
    > which platform they want to develop, it's not uncommon to see PHP
    > and RoR teams with people on OS X, Windows and Linux. I don't think
    > doing a Mac only app is the way to go. BTW, from the survey :
    > Which platforms are used at your organization/department to DEVELOP
    > with WebObjects?
    >
    > Mac OS X 92 orgs
    > Windows 16 orgs
    > Linux 6 orgs
    > Other 2 orgs
    >
    > Personally, I would prefer a RCP-based IDE (like Flex Builder and
    > Aptana) and some Mac specific fixes like Maclipse provides + having
    > the component editor window as a second window so that we can see
    > the component and the Java code at the same time, and it would allow
    > people to see the binding view without having to buy a 30" screen.
    >
    >> Don't read too much into this at this point. I've just been
    >> thinking about it for a while.
    >>
    >>> Eclipse's UI and behaviour will always be one of love/hate with
    >>> people - 'cause it aims to do everything cross-platform etc. It's
    >>> also bloated with so many plugins, some of which work well, some
    >>> badly that it'll never feel like it's out of beta nor natural (as
    >>> you say). I don't see this changing in big ways unless there's a
    >>> radical change tool-wise, though to do so may sacrifice cross-
    >>> platform options which are always the lowest common denominator.
    >>> e.g., consider a webkit or IB plugin or something for editing non-
    >>> java stuff.
    >>>
    >>> I wonder what the workflow would be like if things returned
    >>> somewhat towards the way things used to be (with dedicated apps
    >>> for view/model editing)... but in a new way... perhaps as a webkit
    >>> or IB plugin or something. Then you could drop eclipse's bloat
    >>> where it's not needed and perhaps tailor the experience more
    >>> easily etc and perhaps move towards the whole experience being
    >>> more visually driven which could potentially have some RAD
    >>> benefits (ala rails). With a language like groovy backing things
    >>> the whole experience could be very dynamic.
    >>>
    >>> Just thought I'd throw that out there seeing as you're thinking
    >>> outside the box.. And hey, you've gotta have a reason for putting
    >>> Gianduia to good use somewhere right? It'll surely need a good
    >>> UI ;-)
    >>>
    >>>> Anyway ... I'm not sold on this, but Eclipse UI is the suck, so
    >>>> I'm always looking a ways we can make it suck less.
    >>>
    >>> Cool.
    >>>
    >>> with regards,
    >>> --
    >>>
    >>> Lachlan Deck
    >>>
    >>
    >>
    >
    >
    > -------------------------------------------------------
    > Pascal Robert
    >
    > Twitter | AIM/iChat : MacTICanada
    >



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